This is weird...

[hachiojipm]

This is weird...

[mackee]

Thanks for your issue.
Sorry, I've never used Dancer/Dancer2 and Catalyst and Web::Simple.
If you think weird, please pull request to suggest many modules.

And.. I'm confused that there are "Dancer" and "Dancer 2".
Do you have the recommendation which Dancer should I use?

I'm expecting your recommendation. thanks.

[charsbar]

@mackee, if this is just your personal recommendation (or recommendation from your friends/collegues) and you don't respect long-standing community efforts like Task::Kensho without clear reasons, I'd suggest renaming it to a less generic name such as -perl-jp etc.

PS. Note that adding everything is not awesome.

[mackee]

@charsbar Thanks for your advice.
I think awesome Task::Kensho.
I think so should put link to Task::Kensho in the list.
Therefore, leave the name of the now.

This repository goal is recommend modules for to people who do not know much.
As conditions,

• not too complex
• not dependencies too big/many modules
• stable
• maintained
  etc..

I believe completed very awesome list if that conditions.

@xsawyerx I want add Dancer or Dancer2. I want to ask to your opinion.

[xsawyerx]

First let me apologize for my wording in the issue, both in the title, and in the content.

I thought this was a list of "awesome Perl stuff", rather than "list of things I know are awesome", which encompasses what you know about, and what you think is awesome. I'm sorry. It was a shitty thing I wrote.

I think Dancer2 is awesome, but you might not, especially if you don't know it. I'd be happy to show it to you, and if you think it's awesome, you could add it. And if you don't, I wouldn't be offended.

[xsawyerx]

No reply yet.

[mackee]

Sorry, I making Contributing guideline now.

I not add Dancer/Dancer2 yet.

• Dancer
  Because there is Dancer2.
• Dancer2
  No many users.

Amon2 and Mojolicious clear that conditions.
And, GrowthForecast using Kossy. GrowthForecast has many users.
Also I recommend Kossy for beginners. Kossy is all-in-one and minimal. I don't know there no such other framework.

Can you good in this?

[charsbar]

Wait, @mackee, seriously, and visit http://perldancer.org/testimonials and see what other people say, and visit http://perldancer.org/dancefloor and see how many people use it. Read what lestrrat said on twitter since last night, and reconsider. This is ... not awesome, to say the least.

[xsawyerx]

Honestly I think this is a terrible response.

[swuecho]

more wired is Moose is not in the list, too.

I will submit a pull request after work.

[swuecho]

actually, I think this can provide some information about which should be added.
https://metacpan.org/favorite/leaderboard

[lestrrat]

@mackee さん、ツイッターで英語を書くのがつらいって書いてあったんだけど、日本語でまずちゃんと思いを書けばいいのにな、と思いました。これ、この書き方だとお互いなにがまずいのか通じてないし、正直第三者として読んでても意味がわからないです。

for non-Japanese readers: "Why don't you first write exactly what you mean/want in Japanese, as you were saying on twitter that you were having problems writing down what you really want to say in English"

[lestrrat]

@mackee これも 読んだけど、まず英語がおかしい、というか曖昧すぎる。日本語に置き換えて、日本の一部開発コミュニティでのこれまでの歴史を踏まえればなんとなく言いたいことはわかるけど、英語で世界の誰でも読める形にしてあるものにしてはコンテキストが抜けすぎてる気がします。あと英語がぼろぼろすぎます。すでにオーディエンスが日本国内より大きくなっているのがわかっているはずなので、知り合いの誰かとか、charsbarさんでも僕にでも英語の確認をしてもらうだけでも大分違ったのではないかな。

具体的な例では例えば「依存関係が少ない」：何を持って少ないというの？10個だったらOK？50個は？どこが線引きなの？もし（もしですよ）Cataystが世界中の大規模サイトのほとんどで使われているツールだったとしても依存関係がん百個あるからこのリストにはいれないの？

「Many users」：何を持ってユーザーが多いと言うの？日本での話？Dancerは「日本では」ユーザー少ないですけど、海外の事例を考慮しないの？そういうルールならawesome-perl-jp にして日本語オンリーにすべきですよね。

@xsawyerx とかが「俺のことを馬鹿にしてる」って感じになってるのは当然だと思います。コンテキストを説明してないし、曖昧だし、おまけに英文そのものが間違っているか単語が欠落してりするので、説明責任を果たさずに俺のルールはこれだ、文句言うなというトーンに聞こえます。

なのでまずちゃんと@mackee さんが言いたいことを書きましょう。それを英語にしたりコンテキストを教えたりするのは他の人でもできますが、@mackee さんが何をしたいかは @mackee さん本人にしか説明できません。

[lestrrat]

英語の話。

今改めて気づいたけど、sorry で始めるのはすごく日本人っぽいと思うんだけど、こういう場合のsorryって「Sorry (but your request has been denied）」って意味に取られると思う。多分日本人的に言いたいのは「Sorry (for causing a mess, this is what I'm going to do to fix it)」だと思うんだよね。でもそれは通じないですよ。文化的にそこでまず謝る事は絶対にありえないもの。

この場合本来言うべきは「I understand your concerns, but below is what I would like to do. What do you think?」（あなたの話は分かった、私はこうしたいけど、どう思う？）だと思うな。

[mackee]

皆さんに非常に申し訳ないことをしてしまったと思い反省しています。
Dancerについては僕の知識が少なくもう少し他の人の意見も聞いてそれから入れたいと思っていました。それでもクローズしてしまったことは非常にまずかったです。ごめんなさい。
もう一つ、もっとDancer/Dancer2自体を見るべきだったです。
さらに言えば、もっとはやく助けを求めるべきだったと思いました。

僕がこれを作った目的はPerlの歩き方を知らない方にPerlのモジュールはこんなものがあるよと挙げる目的がありました。これはGolangを書くときにawesome-goの存在が非常に助かっているからです。
しかしGoと違ってPerlは歴史がありモジュールもたくさんあり、いくつかの条件を追加するべきだと思いました。無闇矢鱈にリストを追加すると歩き方がわからない人が混乱するからだと思ったからです。なので、僕なりの条件をとりあえず追加してみたつもりです。

ですが、それが正しくないのは昨日認識させていただきました。ので2つ選択肢があると思いました。

1. このリポジトリを消して誰かが一からもっとよりよいものを作るのを期待する
2. このリポジトリにコラボの方々を追加して条件や入れるものを議論して作り変える

僕はどちらの選択肢が良いのか皆目見当がつきません。もしコラボになっても良いという方が多ければその方をお招きしたいと思いますし、みなさんが消したほうが良い、そのほうがコミュニティのためになるというのなら、消したいと思います。

@lestrrat @charsbar 書き出すまでに時間がかかってしまいましたが、これが今持っている僕の意見です。もしよろしければ意見をくださると大変助かります。

[lestrrat]

Translation:

I regret having handled this terribly.

My knowledge about Dancer was limited, and so I wanted to get more input from others before making any decisions. Closing this issue w/o making that decision/announcement was bad idea. I should have looked at Dancer/Dancer2 more thoroughly before doing anything, and even before that, I should've asked for help from others.

My goal with this list was to help others who do not know about Perl (modules) find what's available out there, just as the awesome-go list has helped me to find good libraries for go. But unlike go, Perl has a much longer history and a various modules, so I thought about making the rules to inclusion on this list more restrictive, according to my own rules.

However, that plan apparently backfired. So at this point I'd like to either

1. Delete this repo and have somebody else create a new one
2. Add more collaborators to this repo and discuss about rules and the list further.

I really don't know what the best course of action is at this point, so I'd like to see what the general feeling about this project is, and decide.

[lestrrat]

@mackee I don't think that's the right thing to do. You should decide for yourself if you would like to continue and get others involved or to delete it.

追記： 別にこういうの面倒くさい、と思ったならやめればいいだけだと思うよ。いずれにせよ、別にこれはたまたま注目が何人からか集まってるけど、あなたのレポジトリなんだから自分で決めればよいと思います。

[xsawyerx]

Okay. It seems like this is close to a runaway train at this point, and I know I was probably less than helpful at that. Let's pause here.

I want to note I am grateful and appreciative of how much you all (@mackee, @charsbar, and @lestrrat) care about this, and I have tremendous respect for everyone here.

I do not think you should delete this. I think this list is a very good idea. I want to thank you for doing this. I also do not think you should absolutely include Dancer (either 1 or 2). If the answer is "no", I only care why the answer is "no".

If this repo is "this is what I think is awesome and Dancer doesn't fall in this category", that's perfectly fine. I just want to know why you think it isn't awesome. If the reason is "I don't know this system", I want to know if I can help introduce you to it, and then you would know it. Maybe then you would include it, maybe not, but at least if you don't include it, there would be a good reason, and not "because I don't know it." It's not a bad thing that you don't know it, but that's something we can easily fix together. :)

If this repo is "a lot of people say it's awesome", that's also perfectly fine. Is this strictly JP people who say something is awesome, or the community at large? I just need to understand the constraints.

I think @lestrrat mentioned, for example, the constraint on dependencies. How many is "a lot"? At least I think that's what he meant. I apologize if I misunderstand, my Japanese is horrible. :)

On the example of dependencies, is it the number, or the type of dependencies (for example, Moo, is frequently used by modules, but has a lot of small deps to it, so the number is large), or rarely-used dependencies (which is generally not a good indicator), or is it how heavy those dependencies are, or is it how much time it takes on install because of them? At YAPC::NA someone measured how many dependencies Catalyst vs. Dancer2 have, and found out that Dancer2 installs very quickly in comparison. For Dancer, the community is the one who pushed to using more dependencies.

When it's "not many users", do you take into account non-JP users? Does it matter? Amon2, for example, doesn't have a lot of users outside JP. It doesn't mean it isn't good. Dancer doesn't have a lot of users in JP, but it does outside. What number is "many", and does it matter who the users are? With Dancer, it's Novell, Shutterstock, Booking, the US government, etc. Does it matter?

There are just so many factors that are unclear here, and we can handle at least some of them, like familiarity.

But let me close with these notes, because if there's anything we can get out of this, let it be this:

• Please do not delete the repo.
• Please continue this. You are doing good work.
• You don't have to include Dancer in the list. I won't be offended if it's for the right reasons, and if I understand those reasons.
• I apologize for my misunderstanding and my probable (perhaps even passive) aggression.
• I appreciate what you do here, and I am thankful that you're doing it.

[lestrrat]

@mackee 翻訳いるようだったら別途連絡ください。分かりやすい文章だとはおもうけど。

[mackee]

@xsawyerx Thank you for your comments and saying "good idea" about this repository.
I have learned a lot of things from you!

"awesome-xxx" such as awesome-ruby, awesome-python or awesome-go are very useful that I think.
So, I started making awesome-perl.

But... I took a mis-communication and lacked fair judgements :(
It's difficult to writing documents or issue-conversations in English for me.
And I am confused because there are difference of contexts using Perl between Japan and overseas.

Now, I feel this is very tough to keep this "awesome-perl" repository.

By the advice from my friends, I decide these things below:

• I'd like to hand off the maintenance of this list to an organization (which includes myself).
• This organization is unofficial Perl Mongers community "Hachioji.pm" in Japan.
  • Hachioji.pm includes people who are more familiar with this topic than myself.
• So repository URL will be moved.