Issues and Suggestions for Sans TC

[NightFurySL2001]

Issues and Suggestions for Sans TC

[NightFurySL2001]

@BoldMonday @mjabbink may I ask what's the current status of Plex Sans TC? Will it be re-released in GitHub repo again soon?

[Scratchbin]

The line spacing of TC is too high while JP has less.

[Buernia]

• Design inconsistency of 丙 component, both in TC and JP:

Text: 寎怲抦昞昺柄炳病窉苪蛃邴鈵陃陋

• Design inconsistency of 豕 component in 蕤, only in TC:

[NightFurySL2001]

@Buernia The 丙 component in JP is intended and expected, Adobe-Japan1 has such differentiations by default. Only 陋 is incorrect for JP presumeable copied from Source Han Sans which has the same problem.

For TC however, either form is acceptable. The JP dot form can be copied over to TC, or just edit the individual 丙 character.

For 豕 component, the JP form is acceptable by TC communities and may be directly copied over for minimal difference between JP and TC (if intended) and more traditional printing form. This is however quite a big edit compared to the 示, and 羽 components listed in the first comment,.
傢像儫冢啄喙噱嚎塚塜墜墬壉壕嫁家幏幪彖慁懅懞掾據攭曚朦椓椽榢橡檬檺櫞櫫欚氋涿潒澽濛濠烼煫猭獴琢瑑璩瘃矇硺礞禒稼篆籇緣腞臄艨蒙蕤蝝蟓蠓蠔蠡褖襐諑譹豕豖豚象豢豪豫豰躆醵鎵鐆鐌鐻隊霥靀餯饛鱌鶨鸏㙇㠙㧻䐁𠎵𠺢𡁏𡟇𡟼𡣘𡱰𢵌𣋡𣫛𣺊𣽁𤐶𤨎𧱬𨧧𨪂𨮙

[cathree3]

if Plex Sans TC using “the dot to left” for 刃, it will make the spacing more even, like Plex Sans JP.
仞訒澀梁粱

[Marcus98T]

@cathree3 This was already mentioned earlier. Please read the previous posts carefully before posting a duplicate issue, unless you also want to talk about the uneven spacing between 𱼀 and 壬 in 望 (U+671B), which I find isn't a big deal.

聖 has different bottom than 檉蟶. Should follow 檉蟶 with curved top.

Originally posted by @/NightFurySL2001 in #556 (comment)

You can also check to see if the character you want to report is already reported in the GitHub issue search bar, or use Ctrl+F.

[Buernia]

Considering most of 豕 components use the new form, It would be more appropriate to modify 蕤 only.

[UltimateAmitieKaiNiC]

囪部件未修改

[Marcus98T]

IBM just took the TC fonts down. They had determined that the total file size for all the Plex fonts is too big for npm, so they are trying to work around the problem.

However, you may still be able to download the fonts here, as I was able to find them when checking the commit history.

They will put them back up shortly once they figure out a solution, and maybe the Simplified Chinese version can follow afterwards.

EDIT: Just saw the exact reason why they took the fonts down and corrected my post.

[cathree3]

⻖陳⻏部阝

The ⻖are not horizontally aligned

[NightFurySL2001]

聖 has different bottom than 檉蟶. Should follow 檉蟶 with curved top.

塣 top right component 呈 has different bottom than 埕悜桯浧珵程脭裎逞郢酲. Should follow the rest with curved top.

筳 has different 廷 length as the rest. Should modify the rest to use 3rd horizontal stroke longest (following orthography) or keep consistency with middle longest.

[cathree3]

the 舌 is sometimes 千, and sometimes 干. maybe they can unify, like 舌 of “LiHei Pro”.

佸刮咶姡懖括蛞活濶筈聒萿葀話趏适颳髺鴰
舌栝恬憩湉甜餂舐舑舔舕舚銛

[Marcus98T]

免 (U+514D) and 勉 (U+52C9) are using unmodified Japanese Shinjitai forms. Please modify them for component consistency with the other 免 components. I can bet that the unreleased Simplified Chinese version may have the corrected forms for these two characters, so Sandoll can take those SC glyphs and put them into the TC font.

Left - IBM Plex Sans TC, Right - Source Han Sans SC (Simplified Chinese form)

[Marcus98T]

As per @BoldMonday's request, I am reposting a minor interpolation bug of 進 (U+9032) in the TC version here, for organization purposes. It is unfortunately inherited from the JP version. I suppose during the development of the TC font, it was simply overlooked.

[cathree3]

the 壬 is not unified on 呈, 聖, 望……

[ItMarki]

Taking this chance to point out an inconsistency.

In the table below, the glyphs are classified by whether the ㇏ stroke in the left component remains unchanged (Form 1) or is turned into a ㇔ stroke (Form 2).

It is clear that even for the same component 叕, some glyphs fall under Form 1, and some under Form 2.

I personally prefer unifying all such glyphs to match Form 2.

[ItMarki]

禥 and 禩 should not have the 衤 component.

[SCLu17]

Would like to throw in my own 2¢ here regarding the 舌 component as mentioned here:
I think there is value in separating characters which originate from 𠯑 (⿱ 氏口) and characters which originate from 舌. The characters mentioned are actually split according to their origins: 佸刮咶姡懖括蛞活濶筈聒萿葀話趏适颳髺鴰 all follow 𠯑 (⿱ 氏口) and should use 千 at the top, whereas 舌栝恬憩湉甜餂舐舑舔舕舚銛 all derive from 舌 and should use 干 at the top.

𠯑 (⿱ 氏口) gradually borrowed the 舌 form but retained the 丿 stroke at the top, whereas 舌 was originally horizontal at the top, but gradually used a slant stroke in handwriting. Modern HK and TW handwriting guidelines distinguish between the two, not from an arbitrary standpoint, but from a real lexicographical difference going back to the Shuowen Jiezi (small seal script), even if that distinction had become obscured over time.

As the original comment said, Plex currently does indeed implement this inconsistently, but I disagree that it should be unified to LiHei’s forms, which takes more inspiration from vulgar forms and is contrary to the guiding principles Plex TC seems to be following.

[SCLu17]

After a brief review of the TC font, there are a few additional issues I’ve found as of v1.000. I’ve categorized by them by order of urgency.

Incorrect glyph shapes (beyond known variances in CN/JP/KR)

• U+4965 (䥥), right half has to follow the vulgar form 亷, not the correct form 廉, which is encoded to U+942E (鐮).
• U+50BC (傼), upper right follows 廿, not 卄.
• U+FA12 (晴), the compatible form has to follow 靑 (U+9751), not 青 (U+9752).
• U+FA26 (都), the compatible form has to have a dot above the 日 at the lower left.

Major inconsistencies (immediately noticeable with forms unfamiliar to TC users)

• U+5BE7 (寧), the glyph currently follows JP form. The middle should be 皿, not 罒. Other glyphs which use 寧 (擰獰檸) are correct.
• U+6E23 (渣), unify with other glyphs containing 查 (揸楂). Greater China uses 查, JP uses 査.
• U+8CD3 (賓), currently uses the JP Shinjitai form (with an extra stroke). The middle should follow the lower half of 步, not 少. All other characters (濱檳繽) do not have this issue.

Inconsistencies (compared to other glyphs sharing the same components, based on which component variant is used the most)

• U+451D, U+6F6B, U+6FDD, U+7020 and U+261DD (䔝潫濝瀠𦇝), the bottom of 糸 at the bottom/lower right should not hook left. Other glyphs (縈綦紫) are not affected.
• U+46BB and U+46D0 (䚻䛐), the top stroke of 言 should be horizontal so as to be consistent with other glyphs which use the 言 component.
• U+4EA3 and U+4EB7 (亣亷), the top should follow other glyphs with the 亠 radical and be vertical at the top. 亣 is a variant of 大.
• U+500F and U+5135 (倏儵), top right should follow other glyphs that follow 攸, such as 條脩鯈.
• U+5029 and U+68C8 (倩棈), right half should be unified with other 青 (U+9752) glyphs (情靖請). Note U+9751 (靑) is encoded separately and is therefore a special exception.
• U+5510 (唐), the middle (肀) currently follows the Japanese form (but is itself a common handwriting variant). Its bottom should stick out. Other glyphs (塘糖) are correct.
• U+5AF2 and U+8534 (嫲蔴), the non-radical portion should follow other glyphs that follow 麻 (嘛麼). Its inside should be 𣏟, not 林.
• U+5B82 (宂), bottom half should follow 儿, not 几. Only the CN form follows 几, here a vulgar form. Lexicographically, it traces back to 宀 (house) and 儿 (person; 儿 is historically a variant of 人).
• All characters containing 害 (害割嗐搳犗瞎磍縖螛豁轄鶷) should have its middle (丯) unified with 憲. The vertical stroke's bottom traditionally sticks out, but TW and JP orthographies replace it with 龶. The top part of 憲 comes from a reduction of 害; the two share the same root, and therefore that middle part 丯 should look the same between the two.
• U+6145 and U+9F1C (慅鼜), the left-most dot of the 蚤 component should point in the same direction as the dot in the middle, as with other characters which follow 蚤 (搔騷蚤).
• U+61B2 (憲), this particular glyph currently uses the JP form and should be made consistent with other glyphs that use 憲 (幰櫶瀗). The vertical stroke of 丯 should stick out at the bottom, although TW and JP orthography modifies this to become 龶. See also 害 above.
• U+7029 and U+75DC (瀩痜), the lower half of 禿 should follow 儿 (HK/TW), not 几 (CN).

Miscellaneous changes

• U+5844, U+6123, U+695E (塄愣楞), changing the top right to 四 is recommended. While state guidelines prescribe 罒 at the top right, this is actually vulgarized from 四. 楞 originates from 木 (wood), 四 (four) and 方 (corner), meaning a square pillar. 愣 and 塄 both derive from 楞.

Suggested additions

• U+596C 奬, a common nonstandard variant of 獎 (U+734E), following 大 instead of 犬. Note while U+596C is nonstandard in HK and TW, it is the standard ‘old’ form in CN and JP. Due to their visual similarity, some IMEs like handwriting can input one instead of the other, so having both is recommended. This glyph can be copied directly from Sans JP.
• U+654E 敎, the old form of 教 (U+6559) (note difference in top left). While no longer the preferred form in HK and TW governmental guidelines, U+654E remains common and is the preferred form in certain institutions, e.g. the Catholic Church in Hong Kong. Some HK legislation also uses U+654E. Not including it will result in rendering problems in common applications. This can be copied directly from Sans JP.
• U+7232 爲, a common variant of 為 (U+70BA). Can be copied directly from Sans JP.
• U+7C52 籒, ancient variant of 籀 (U+7C40), commonly used in Han lexicography and orthography studies, refers to an early seal script variant.
• U+9682 隂, common variant of 陰 (U+9670) before the twentieth century.
• U+96B7 隷, common variant of 隸 (U+96B8), can be copied directly from Sans JP.
• U+96EB 雫, very common in Japanese names, without a Chinese equivalent. In order to preserve proper noun representations, it is strongly advised that this be included in the TC font too.

[mjabbink]

Thank you all for the feedback. The Sandoll design team is addressing much of what is noted above. We have a new workstream that will address the consistency details, among others, and add new glyphs to meet new standards/requirements.

[Des-Magmeta]

𧥺(U+2797A) the right component 勻 has different last stroke than 伨呁均昀枃汮畇盷蚐袀鈞韵㚬. Should follow the rest with the curved last stroke.

[NightFurySL2001]

𠸖 U+20E16 and 䴇 U+4D07 have different 令 component than the rest.
However, in this case I propose to use the JP form (or 𠸖 U+20E16). This form with a straight bottom ㄗ fits the geometric design of IBM Plex Sans more, and does not introduce inconsistent curvature in 龴 (the bend looks very weird in this design which did not match the curvature of the top 人). The ㄗ form also matches the traditional printing form used in books, magazines and posters.

[mjabbink]

FYI @Sandoll-DS