Where place choosing name?

[neoinsight]

Where place choosing name?

[anniecrombie]

I don't seem to be able to access the page at the moment, but if it is
ready and we could show it to the group at today's meeting, that would be
great. Thanks!

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Lisa Fast [email protected]
wrote:

@patlaj https://github.com/patlaj I've made the choosing-name file but
when I put it into the business folder, none of the top of the page worked
properly. Then I put it into just MVP and it does work. I just don't
understand what's been done here, could you delete one of them and fix one
of them (I assume it's the one in Business that should work) so the
canada.ca parts of the page format properly. Then I'll work more on
finessing the html.
https://neoinsight.github.io/start-business/mvp/choosing-name-en.html
fyi @anniecrombie https://github.com/anniecrombie

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[patlaj]

Hi Annie - the new pages are here:

https://neoinsight.github.io/start-business/mvp/business/start.html
https://neoinsight.github.io/start-business/mvp/business/planning.html
https://neoinsight.github.io/start-business/mvp/business/choose-name.html

I'm going to do a bit of work this morning to clean up the homepage and
make sure links work - but there are still some links on the start page
that don't go anywhere yet. We'd have to at least link to copies of the
existing pages before we'd be able to actually run a test participant
through them. (I'll try to do that this morn too).

Patrick

On 17 November 2016 at 08:50, Annie Crombie [email protected]
wrote:

I don't seem to be able to access the page at the moment, but if it is
ready and we could show it to the group at today's meeting, that would be
great. Thanks!

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Lisa Fast [email protected]
wrote:

@patlaj https://github.com/patlaj I've made the choosing-name file but
when I put it into the business folder, none of the top of the page
worked
properly. Then I put it into just MVP and it does work. I just don't
understand what's been done here, could you delete one of them and fix
one
of them (I assume it's the one in Business that should work) so the
canada.ca parts of the page format properly. Then I'll work more on
finessing the html.
https://neoinsight.github.io/start-business/mvp/choosing-name-en.html
fyi @anniecrombie https://github.com/anniecrombie

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[neoinsight]

That's great - we will be ready to pilot test the Steps, Name and Corporations task when everything is all hooked together again.

@patlaj thanks for cleaning up the choosing a name page - but I don't think the items under Step 1 should be H3, makes them too prominent - @anniecrombie your thoughts?

Also under Step 2, I don't think numbers should be used because there are already numbered steps - layering them like that is not a good idea. Tricky problem I know, but try to find some other solution. This is actually where an image can really help - perhaps a stylized flow diagram would be a nice addition (not today...).

[neoinsight]

Urg sorry, one other thing - would recommend not having the word 'Step' in front of everything. Remember that most people only read the first few characters of a link or heading. When they all start with identical words, it makes it harder for people to scan for their keywords. That's why I tend to recommend just numbers - use the word steps up top or in the very first step, and not after that.

[neoinsight]

@patlaj Am also concerned about the readability of the width of the prose paragraphs on the Choose-name page - can you ask the Style Guide team what is recommended here, or @DK-TBS
Looks like a column is needed to me.

[patlaj]

I forgot to mention that I had to make a few adjustments based on the style guide. That includes inline links and lists...we can't have multiple sentences in a list item. That's the problem with the H3s under "how to choose"...if they're headings (which they seem to be), they have to be h3 since we can't skip levels. On the other hand maybe we can make them something other than headings...I'll try something. (I used a description list in the glossary, but that's a special case and wouldn't be appropriate for the Q&A format of the "how to choose" section.)

Regarding line length - it's just a content page, and the template is designed to flow text to that width. I'll see what people say, but I think this is just the reality of the Canada.ca template. If we have to alter line length to make plain text more readable in this case then it's something we should probably be doing globally.

[patlaj]

I've updated those h3s to just paragraphs, but with a bold offset to the questions and line break before the answers. This should be WCAG and style guide appropriate.

https://neoinsight.github.io/start-business/mvp/business/choose-name.html

[anniecrombie]

I'd intended items under How to choose as more of a bulleted list rather
than headings. So if there is a way we can adjust to have it both take up
less space and be less prominent, that would be great.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:35 AM, patlaj [email protected] wrote:

I forgot to mention that I had to make a few adjustments based on the
style guide. That includes inline links and lists...we can't have multiple
sentences in a list item. That's the problem with the H3s under "how to
choose"...if they're headings (which they seem to be), they have to be h3
since we can't skip levels. On the other hand maybe we can make them
something other than headings...I'll try something. (I used a description
list in the glossary, but that's a special case and wouldn't be appropriate
for the Q&A format of the "how to choose" section.)

Regarding line length - it's just a content page, and the template is
designed to flow text to that width. I'll see what people say, but I think
this is just the reality of the Canada.ca template. If we have to alter
line length to make plain text more readable in this case then it's
something we should probably be doing globally.

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[patlaj]

Yeah I know what you mean...lists in the style guide are basically just for short items now. I think what's there now should work?

[neoinsight]

Ok getting better, good test case for the constraints.
Agree that line length of the template is a reality - let's see what @DK-TBS thinks - maybe I'm way off in thinking it looks too wide.
@anniecrombie - thoughts about removing the word 'step'

[anniecrombie]

Maybe we can discuss the style guide a bit too.

I didn't realize that inline links are not allowed anymore and I'm not
thrilled with the way that the links are being presented on the naming
page. I'm open to discussing alternate ways of presenting the information,
but I don't like the bulleted link at the bottom of a paragraph (especially
when it is a bulleted link following a bulleted list).

Also under "2. Search the Canadian corporate names (except Quebec) and
trademarks database - NUANS", the two items after "includes" are a list. I
don't think that not formatting them as bullets changes the fact they are a
list. It just makes the presentation less clear. I have nothing against
style guides when they help improve the presentation of information, but I
think we need to question them when they force us into making an odd choice
in order to fit within a rule. Maybe there is another way to present this
that still fits with the rule, but I don't love the way it is presented
here.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:35 AM, patlaj [email protected] wrote:

I forgot to mention that I had to make a few adjustments based on the
style guide. That includes inline links and lists...we can't have multiple
sentences in a list item. That's the problem with the H3s under "how to
choose"...if they're headings (which they seem to be), they have to be h3
since we can't skip levels. On the other hand maybe we can make them
something other than headings...I'll try something. (I used a description
list in the glossary, but that's a special case and wouldn't be appropriate
for the Q&A format of the "how to choose" section.)

Regarding line length - it's just a content page, and the template is
designed to flow text to that width. I'll see what people say, but I think
this is just the reality of the Canada.ca template. If we have to alter
line length to make plain text more readable in this case then it's
something we should probably be doing globally.

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Re-Think Strategic Consulting

T 613-863-9569

[email protected] [email protected]

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[anniecrombie]

I'm fine with removing the word "step" if you think that will improve
things. I wanted to make it clear there there is a sequence, but I'm open
to different ways of doing that. I also think we need to look then at
numbering overall on the page because we have steps within the steps too.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Lisa Fast [email protected] wrote:

Ok getting better, good test case for the constraints.
Agree that line length of the template is a reality - let's see what
@DK-TBS https://github.com/DK-TBS thinks - maybe I'm way off in
thinking it looks too wide.
@anniecrombie https://github.com/anniecrombie - thoughts about removing
the word 'step'

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[patlaj]

@anniecrombie excellent topics for discussion this morning! :)

I'll remove the "steps" for now, easy to roll back if we want later.

[patlaj]

BTW - at this point, any edits are really easy to do even if you only have access to the web interface (like we do at work). ;) So adding/removing numbers, "steps" etc. are easy for anyone.

[anniecrombie]

I made some changes based on discussion in the meeting this morning.

Patrick removed the words "steps" earlier and I removed the numbering now.
Based on the discussions we had this morning, I would prefer to either be
explicit about it being Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 or leave out the numbering
altogether since it was odd to have:

• 1. Choose a good name
• 2. Find out if a name is already taken
• 3. Register your business name
• Glossary

It looked like we just forgot to add the "4" to Glossary.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:18 AM, patlaj [email protected] wrote:

BTW - at this point, any edits are really easy to do even if you only have
access to the web interface (like we do at work). ;) So adding/removing
numbers, "steps" etc. are easy for anyone.

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[anniecrombie]

Sorry....just remembered a few more. Give me 5 more minutes and then I'll
be done with it!

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Annie Crombie [email protected]
wrote:

I made some changes based on discussion in the meeting this morning.

Patrick removed the words "steps" earlier and I removed the numbering now.
Based on the discussions we had this morning, I would prefer to either be
explicit about it being Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 or leave out the numbering
altogether since it was odd to have:

• 1. Choose a good name
• 2. Find out if a name is already taken
• 3. Register your business name
• Glossary

It looked like we just forgot to add the "4" to Glossary.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:18 AM, patlaj [email protected] wrote:

BTW - at this point, any edits are really easy to do even if you only
have access to the web interface (like we do at work). ;) So
adding/removing numbers, "steps" etc. are easy for anyone.

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Re-Think Strategic Consulting

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Annie Crombie, MBA, UXC
President
Re-Think Strategic Consulting

T 613-863-9569

[email protected] [email protected]

*www.rethinkconsulting.ca http://www.rethinkconsulting.ca *

[neoinsight]

@anniecrombie Uh oh, I really liked the numbers and steps. We need to figure out how to show steps. I would probably rather leave the word 'Step' there than remove all steps and all numbers because of the glossary.

What about a compromise - leave the step in the heading, but remove them from the anchor links at the top. So people won't skip reading them and getting the quick overview.

[anniecrombie]

Sure. I'll do that.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Lisa Fast [email protected] wrote:

@anniecrombie https://github.com/anniecrombie Uh oh, I really liked the
numbers and steps. We need to figure out how to show steps. I would
probably rather leave the word 'Step' there than remove all steps and all
numbers because of the glossary.

What about a compromise - leave the step in the heading, but remove them
from the anchor links at the top. So people won't skip reading them and
getting the quick overview.

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[anniecrombie]

The other issue beyond the "glossary" was the steps within the steps.
Within Step #2, we have a 1, 2, 3, and 4. So the page numbering ended up
being:

There isn't enough difference between H2 and H3 for the difference to stand
out. So unless we are going to go to 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, we need something else
to avoid confusion between higher level steps and lower level steps.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Lisa Fast [email protected] wrote:

@anniecrombie https://github.com/anniecrombie Uh oh, I really liked the
numbers and steps. We need to figure out how to show steps. I would
probably rather leave the word 'Step' there than remove all steps and all
numbers because of the glossary.

What about a compromise - leave the step in the heading, but remove them
from the anchor links at the top. So people won't skip reading them and
getting the quick overview.

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T 613-863-9569

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[neoinsight]

Well, 2.1, 2.2 is the conventional way to do that. We could try it?

[anniecrombie]

That kind of numbering strikes me more as report ordering rather than steps
to follow.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Lisa Fast [email protected] wrote:

Well, 2.1, 2.2 is the conventional way to do that. We could try it?

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[neoinsight]

Well yes, interesting problem. On an app, you'd not see the next steps until you went through the previous ones. Maybe should collapse later steps, just show first one? Am trying to think of design patterns for this.

[anniecrombie]

Peter also suggested that we consider the advanced service template as an
alternate format for this (perhaps testing both).

On Nov 17, 2016 3:02 PM, "Lisa Fast" [email protected] wrote:

Well yes, interesting problem. On an app, you'd not see the next steps
until you went through the previous ones. Maybe should collapse later
steps, just show first one? Am trying to think of design patterns for this.

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[neoinsight]

Well, that IS what I usually tell people - if there are steps, use Advanced. And since we keep hitting these tough issues, we should do that. Let me finish something else, and I'll give that a shot.

[neoinsight]

I just cannot get to this today. Sorry. Will try tomorrow a.m.

[Borges-Porteous]

@neoinsight I can drop it into an Advanced SIP since we are talking about it too. I'll put it up in the business folder this morning

[neoinsight]

@Borges-Porteous I just did it.

[neoinsight]

But it needs all the references fixed. Can you do that? Because @steve-h is proposing he could write a script to do this, instead of us copying and pasting.

[Borges-Porteous]

@neoinsight sure I can go in and fix references - though if steve-h is making a script to do it, doesn't that mean I don't have to?

[neoinsight]

@Borges-Porteous well, he says it's not ready, and it would build a dependency on him, so for now, you do it please. Because we really wanted to get this done fast.

[neoinsight]

One thing he does suggest is if you are in there fixing anyway, make the references to GCweb resources absolute (the full URL) instead of with the ../.. stuff, that way any time they are cloned or moved, they don't have to be changed.

[Borges-Porteous]

@neoinsight you mean the pages under the "choose-name" folder, right?

Don't we just need 3 tabs?

[neoinsight]

I just copied the whole thing. Just use what you need.

[DK-TBS]

@neoinsight - Yeah, letting the text take up the full page width is a little bit much. Not awful, but definitely on the wide side. The spec does say something about restricting line lengths to around 95 characters, but 95 characters is actually pretty slim, like we'd have to add empty sidebars to get it down to that width. And the WET templates were built without taking line length into consideration at all. So it's a bit of a gap in the whole system here.

@patlaj - One potentially easy way to address this would be to put the main content in a column so you can then restrict the width a bit. You've already got a <main class="container"> holding the page text, so all you'd have to do is go inside that and wrap your text in a column like this:

<div class="row">
<div class="col-md-12">

{page content]

</div>
</div>

And then fiddle with that "12" value to get a width that feels good. 12 is full width, so you might try 10. Just be sure to test the results in various screen sizes to make sure the change doesn't cause a silly layout on smaller screens. I haven't fiddled with this much, so my advice might be leading you to an unpredictable layout :)

[Borges-Porteous]

@neoinsight One final thing - if it's going to take some time to set up the script for changing the relative links to the styles, can't we just put all the pages under the MVP folder (no sub-folders)?

I had been experimenting with a number system in the file names to conserve the order of pages can you take a look at https://github.com/neoinsight/start-business/tree/gh-pages/mvp and tell me if that number system would be adequate?

[neoinsight]

@Borges-Porteous I'm no expert on this - @steve-h is but he's out. So do what you think is best. I think @steve-h should have a call with you and Patrick to discuss on Monday.

[neoinsight]

@DK-TBS ok thanks for that. What you are confirming is that indeed this is a gap with the content page template that needs to be addressed. Perhaps should post as an issue in GCWeb.

[neoinsight]

@DK-TBS I am closing this issue. You said above:

And the WET templates were built without taking line length into consideration at all. So it's a bit of a gap in the whole system here.

I believe the line lengths should be posted as an issue on GCWeb - by you. I just don't have the expertise on the CSS you describe above. Copying @pcwsmith

[DK-TBS]

@neoinsight - Roger that! I've actually figured out a really good, easy solution that the devs can use to solve this problem using only CSS, and only a bit of it. Will be posting a new issue to address that in the next few biz days :)